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Bonus Ritual Magic
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Rasfrasen
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:32 pm    Post subject: Bonus Ritual Magic Reply with quote

Are the bonus points awarded for a high presence a one time bonus, a per character circle bonus or a per spell circle bonus?

The one time bonus would seem vastly different compared to the bonus given for faith magic.
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The one time bonus would seem vastly different compared to the bonus given for faith magic.

You're right, Rasfrasen. They are pretty different. There actually wasn't an effort to achieve parity there. Whether that seems right or wrong, depends on your perspective, I suppose.

If you do think there should be a parity between the two, I wouldn't suggest simply increasing the # of bonus spell points, as the mystics get them all at creation, rather than at each Circle. In fact, I would suggest you do something like you suggested, and grant them at each new Circle.

As an aside, although there are a number of implicit mirrored aspects between magics, their differences (multi-targeting in Hedge, substitution/consolidation in Faith, Resist + PC in Faith, etc.) are not accidental. Philosophically speaking, if balance is the ultimate measure, you'll find a number of places to be disappointed in Wayfarers. I can tell you, from the standpoint of combat effectiveness, there are some very good and some pretty bad buys on the skill list. In a number of places, simulation and opinion won out over balance. Same thing with armor, weapons, and spells.

That's not to say that what you or your group would rather do is wrong.
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Ars Mysteriorum
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimmySwill wrote:
Philosophically speaking, if balance is the ultimate measure, you'll find a number of places to be disappointed in Wayfarers. I can tell you, from the standpoint of combat effectiveness, there are some very good and some pretty bad buys on the skill list. In a number of places, simulation and opinion won out over balance. Same thing with armor, weapons, and spells.


This is precisely why I love this game.
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Dartavian
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ars Mysteriorum wrote:
JimmySwill wrote:
Philosophically speaking, if balance is the ultimate measure, you'll find a number of places to be disappointed in Wayfarers. I can tell you, from the standpoint of combat effectiveness, there are some very good and some pretty bad buys on the skill list. In a number of places, simulation and opinion won out over balance. Same thing with armor, weapons, and spells.


This is precisely why I love this game.


I have to second this opinion. No cookie cutters here. We play what we love to play and that pretty much sums it up!
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TheLurkerBelow
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you do think there should be a parity between the two, I wouldn't suggest simply increasing the # of bonus spell points, as the mystics get them all at creation, rather than at each Circle.



i added the bold to emphasize this: the all what, 1, possibly 2, at a very high cost. So it's intended to cost the majority of your starting attribute points so that you can have enough additional spell points to ALMOST cast 1 first level spell? perfect parity between every school/discipline, etc, boring, but a one time bonus of....ONE! ta da. pass thanks.

Quote:
I can tell you, from the standpoint of combat effectiveness, there are some very good and some pretty bad buys on the skill list.


So I'm gonna trample on the little love triangle going on here and say

What a complete waste of creative time.

If players want to roleplay a weaker or gimped character, they can do that by choosing appropriate skills or lack of skills. Having spent time to think up a discipline like Pause and Study and then have it cost more than double what it's worth, that's just a waste of creative time. Furthermore it's a waste of a players time both in creation (reading through skill lists to find junk like that) and in play (for those that fail to recognize it for what it is).

I'm sorry, I enjoy your world, I LOVE LOVE LOVE the skill based system, and I think the feedback and parlay on this forum is wonderful, but I will not stroke your wanker like that freak Dartavian above me. Twisted Evil
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Last edited by TheLurkerBelow on Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ars Mysteriorum
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disagreement is the spice of any discourse, but berating another's enjoyment with a thing in this case is simply childish and has little to do with your point.

I strongly suggest you edit yourself.
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No worries LurkerBelow. Smile I just have a sec, but I'll elaborate a bit more on this later tonight/tomorrow.

And I think that was in jest Ars M. Wink But please, everyone Leave my wanker out of this!
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Gregory Vrill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth, "Pause and Study" in particular became an in-joke in the game that spread to real life.

It was so useless in the first version of the skillpoint system game I ran, that whenever somebody was down for the count, or couldn't act, or was taking a self-imposed time out to go watch TV or whatever, they'd 'pause and study'.

Became part of our daily lingo after that.

Lurker, you're spot on. I'm of two minds here. One is that yeah, it's part of the damn system, let's playtest it and make sure fits, point-wise and mechanics-wise, otherwise, what the **** is it doing in the game?

Well, the 'second mind' is the response to that question, and that is: me and Swill put it in there as a reference to where our game, our system, and the book came from. It just wouldn't have been *our* game without the f-ing useless Pause and Study skill on the list. Might not be the most satisfying of answers, and we did try to tweak it and make it better, but partially it's historical hubris.

Vrill out.
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Warning, I need sleep.

Here's some of my reasoning behind the design: Presence just isn't as important for Ritual Magic as it is for Faith, or at least not in the same way. Presence influences some proficiencies, and Mental Resist, but it is not a major boon for Ritual Magic. The extra points give some casting flexibility, but you are right, a very high Presence isn't much worth it in the context of Ritual magic itself. So, with a Mystic, I wouldn't bother with bumping the character's Presence much, unless I had other reasons to do so. (In terms of a mystic's combat effectiveness, I'd look to increasing Endurance.) Take another perspective, and consider if Presence didn't give a Ritual Magic bonus at all. That could be justified, but instead, Presence has a small effect.

As for Pause and Study, I didn't set out to gimp it (if you think it's gimped). A +2 to-hit on any opponent. A well-armored character might select to use it just about every round. But, yes it is a pricy buy. However, compare it to buying 2 levels of Increased Accuracy, especially grades II and III (10 + 15). Anyway, the point is, it wasn't arbitrary. But what Vrill says is true, there is more history to it than that. But I didn't set out to gimp it. Yet, noted.

Maybe I should clarify what I mean by this:
Quote:
"I can tell you, from the standpoint of combat effectiveness, there are some very good and some pretty bad buys on the skill list."

I never intended to waste a player's creative time, and yes, I know full well that some players will work to get the 'best buys' in terms of combat effectiveness. Greg loves to do that, BTW. Smile -That is a component of the game people rightfully enjoy, each to a different degree.

What I set out to do with Wayfarers (with a lot of help from Greg and others), was to create a system that would emulate a kind of world, and a certain feel for play. The goal with mechanics was to be elegant and (more or less) balanced when able, but not to obsess about either elegance or balance when they were obviously compromising the emulation and feel.

In the end, the multitude of variables in character creation results in a complex and non-linear model. I've done some physics in my day, and I'd like to think that the experience has given me a feel for where modeling has its limits. -Good modeling is all about isolation and generalization of phenomenon. However, a game system requires that you cannot isolate much, since you are actually trying to represent most anything you throw at it. IMO, at it's very best, a game system can just feel right, and just play right. However, by it's very nature, no one should be able to say exactly why a good system works.

Now, what does that all really mean? To me, it means that a good system is a rough model that does a lot of what people want. But, as different people want different things, the model should be able to be easily moved into the sweet spot a new group is looking for. It is no mistake that Wayfarers shares a basic design space with D&D. We really dig a lot about D&D, and so do a lot of other people. We have spent a lot of time gaming in that space, and so have many others. IMO, it's a damn good space to game! But, speaking for myself, that space seemed to harden over time. Eventually, the game seemed to suppose that you would tweak it less and less, and that seemed to become a nature of the design itself.

I think we have done pretty well with Wayfarers' skeleton, getting darn close to the point where the game has a nice framework, but has an intrinsic flexibility that enables it to be tweaked across groups.

Where I still want to do even more work, however, is in that original space that Wayfarers begins. I am still looking at the nuances of the game with a critical eye. In all seriousness, we haven't played this game enough. And I don't just mean just us at the YOGC. We at the YOGC could play it for years, and we could still fail to do the right thing with it.

One of the reasons why we are so keen on talking to you all, is becuase that is what makes for a great game. The best games are supported by the best communities. And, I'd argue that many of the best things about a game actually exist in its community. The community, and all of its history and expectations, is a real part of a good game. The WoTC open-gaming license enabled us to build Wayfarers in a place that had some heritage. It was a place we liked. But, even on our own, over the years, we had drifted from that place, and Wayfarers is largely defined by that. However, even as its creator, I am still learning about Wayfarers. To be honest, there is going to be a second edition of this game at some point well down the road. I don't know when, -when the time is right. Think years. Smile

However, I do know that it won't be a drastically different game, but there will be a slight drift in directions that are still being defined by all of us. IMO, I think it's a mistake to drastically evolve a game. -It throws out a lot of valuable capital that was gained over the life of the previous version. That stuff should infuse the next version. IMHO, the game is the game. If you really want to build a different one, give it a different name.

Every game has an intangible quality to it. That quality is fragile and cannot really be directly operated upon. However, tweaking those little things here and there can make that intangible quality shine brighter.

I hear what you say about Ritual Magic. I've actually had a few opinions on it voiced to me, and have some new perspective of my own since we printed. Ritual Magic is coming into its own, warts and all. That's why if you say "Dude, Presence bonuses for Ritual blow!" I can comfortably say: "No kidding. They do." And if you say: "I'm going to do this to fix it." I can say: "Cool. Let me know how it works."

In the end, I can't say what will happen when eventually a second edition comes along. If over time, players tell me that the Presence bonuses for Ritual Magic are lame, it definitely means something. But, it doesn't mean they need to necessarily be increased. Another change might make even more sense. For example, what if those extra Presence-bonus spell point are wild-cards, and can be used for any sphere?

These are the kinds of things that make this kind of discourse important. I do love the feedback.

Sorry, I am a bit under-slept, but there's some feedback on the point.
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TheLurkerBelow
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has been apparent from the first look at this game and this board that you guys love it, and that love also plays out in the LotBKs very well GM'd sessions. Regardless of occasional flaws it is the great interest and enjoyment of the creators that make it work. Wayfarers works well.

Had I read the opening background to the game at the beginning of the book I might have a better understanding of the games development, etc. Eh, doesn't matter, it's the nature of this beast to nitpick and complain, and I will still continue to do so. Not with the intention of offending anybody, my jab above was intended for the one-eyed peg-legged pirate that GM's our games.

Follows is my laundry list of flaws:

1. heh, kidding. get rested up first. Razz
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheLurkerBelow wrote:
Eh, doesn't matter, it's the nature of this beast to nitpick and complain, and I will still continue to do so. Not with the intention of offending anybody, my jab above was intended for the one-eyed peg-legged pirate that GM's our games.

Follows is my laundry list of flaws:

1. heh, kidding. get rested up first. Razz

Send them as you find them LurkerBelow. Smile I would not have made the game if I didn't throughly enjoy deliberating about this stuff.
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Dartavian
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I know, I have left it up to the guys (lurker mainly since his main character is most effected) to come up with some sort of resolution that we can playtests.
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Gregory Vrill
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds good- I know both me and Swill would love to hear about it if you guys figure out more balanced skills.

...

So, I love psionics. Every third game or so, I'd try out a new psionics system. It either a) sucked or b) was too powerful, and so the next campaign it was nixed, then the NEXT campaign after that, we didn't have it and I wanted it, so third campaign rolls around, I give you PSIONICS. Always a completely different system... we tried the classic 1st ed, the revised 2nd ed, a variant of 3rd ed, and two homebrew systems.

Anyway, it was impossible to balance, but damn did I try. The procedure was simple, Reader, Bruder: take a skill that sucks and make it better. If it gives you a +2 to hit, make it a +4. Hell, even +5, just see what it takes to start the player using it again. Then see if it becomes ALL they do, kinda like if you give that 1st ed magic-user magic missile after he has burning hands? No one ever gets burning hands-ed anymore.

But you guys are smart and have figured this out already. When you've got what seem to be a corrected set of parameters, let us know, Swill will put them in the WGJ.
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gregory Vrill wrote:
No one ever gets burning hands-ed anymore.

One great thing about gaming, that seldom gets mentioned, is that it often makes you construct sentences than have probably never have been spoken before.
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gregory Vrill wrote:
So, I love psionics. Every third game or so, I'd try out a new psionics system. It either a) sucked or b) was too powerful, and so the next campaign it was nixed, then the NEXT campaign after that, we didn't have it and I wanted it, so third campaign rolls around, I give you PSIONICS. Always a completely different system... we tried the classic 1st ed, the revised 2nd ed, a variant of 3rd ed, and two homebrew systems.

That reminds me, Moth was going to try to square the circle with that one. He had some good ideas for Espers. I want to walk down that road again sometime.
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