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Issues with RAW
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JimmySwill
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Joined: 02 Jan 2008
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Location: Torsche

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:35 am    Post subject: Issues with RAW Reply with quote

Do you have a substantial problem with the Wayfarers rules as written (RAW)? Here we will compile a list of the most common or notable concerns with the Wayfarers RAW. Feel free to add your own here, or anywhere else within the Wayfarers RPG or Wayfarers Guild Journal forums.

Notable issues with RAW:

Invisibility Spell: 4th Hermetic, 4th Hedge. Concern that the '1 hour per Circle' duration is too long. Suggested alternative: decrease duration to '10 minutes per Circle'. Note to GMs: remember invisible characters do not know each others positions. These characters might often be in danger of friendly fire or stray melee attacks. Do not forget the many disadvantages of invisibility.

Shield damage absorption: 1 point of damage absorption is too consistent to model a shield. Suggested alternatives:
Option 1: 1d3 - 1 (0-2) absorption for shields.
Option 2: 1d3 - 1 (0-2) absorption for shields. 1d2 - 1 (0-1) absorption for bucklers. Shields have impedance of -2. Buckers have impedance of -1. Shield Use discipline has 2 grades. 4 skill pts. x grade.

d10 Non-proficient check rolls: d10 completely removes the chance of a very unlikely success for a non-proficient character. Suggested alternatives:
Option 1: Roll 1d10, 10's explode. (Roll 1d10 again and add 10 for the final result)
Option 2: Roll 2d20, keep the lowest dice result.
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Last edited by JimmySwill on Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:15 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Warden
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Joined: 08 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never liked the idea of a character being unable to accomplish an action because the 'dice don't roll that high'. Non proficiency checks on a 1d10 prohibit any possible chance of success against Target Numbers of 11+.

I'm toying with the idea of an exploding 1d10 wherein you re-roll a natural maximum. It's a 10% chance of success which may be too high for some players but I feel it isn't that big a deal. Besides, as the Target Number ratchets higher (12, 13, 14+ etc), the % chance of success diminishes.

Having said all that, the 1d10 roll should in some instances be enforced as is. If you can't read Latin for example, you ain't going to decipher that scroll.
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point taken, Warden. It's interesting, we toyed with an exploding dice mechanic for proficiencies in development.

I think your exploding 10 idea would go like this: 10 = 10%, 11= 10%, 12 = 9%, 13 = 8%, 14 = 7%, 15 = 6%, 16 = 5%, 17 = 4%, 18 = 3%, 19 = 2%, 20 = 1%. -That seems reasonable.

I was actually thinking on this some time ago, as the 1d10 has always felt adequate, but not elegant. I recently considered that non-proficient checks might be better made by rolling 2d20 and taking the lowest d20 result. I haven't play-tested this yet, but I do like how it keeps with the same mechanic of proficiency grades. The statistics are interesting, but difficult to formulate. -I'm going to work it out sometime. You do get a smooth curve that is weighted towards lower results.

The 1d10 for non-proficient checks works, but I'd be interested if you (or anyone else) tries an alternative. Personally, I might be giving the '2d20 keep the lowest' a shot in my games. This would make a nice topic for the WGJ, so let me know what you think.
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greyfaced
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Joined: 06 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rolling 2d20 for proficiencies is bad idea.

Sorry I have finals this week and my parents are in town, so I won't write up all the reasons that is a bad idea.

Sorry Jim.

In short, "well rolling just one is lame, ok let's just roll 2 then."

Maybe I'm not doing the idea justice, but it seems weak.
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

greyfaced wrote:
rolling 2d20 for proficiencies is bad idea.

Hey, you also thought '1d20 per grade keep the highest' was crazy, Greyfaced. Smile -It's one of the mechanics that people compliment the most.

@Warden: All my design ideas have to go through this. See what I have to put up with? Smile Frickin heuristicians... But, in all seriousness, I think this is what it's all about. Now if we could only get greyfaced to write a WGJ article...
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Warden
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Life can be brutal! Very Happy

My gripe with 2d20 choose lowest, is it can be too easy to roll two high scores, thus immeditaely negating the entire principle of rolling low. I don't know what the % chances are of rolling two low scores and stuff, but it just doesn't seem to be that much of a detriment. Ok that doesn't sound right, but I hope you get what I'm saying.

Having said that I actually use this mechanic for my own Rpg's weapon damage system:

Small Weapons: Roll 3d6 choose lowest result
Medium Weapons: Roll 3d6 Choose middle result
Large Weapons: Roll 3d6 choose highest result
Huge Weapons: Roll 3d6 add results together

I think I'm going to stick with a d10 exploding sice, or maybe even a (d12: 8.33% chance of getting a natural 12). Or maybe even a non proficiency check with a -4 modifier.

I need to lie down...
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For your edification, here's the prof probabilities, as well as the d10 (with exploding) or a 2d20 take the lowest.


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greyfaced
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Location: Pleroma, Oregon

PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the kind Senator from Michigan, I cannot at this time recall what may have transpired during those stressful events.

I think I said I'd want to look at it, and that it seems to work much better than exploding d4's especially at lower levels. The problem, if it is one, is that once you get grade IV you can do almost anything with a great chance of success, especially if you buy skill focus and have a good trait. This can be accomplished by skill level 4 and is ultimately a question of game play.

I think it has proven to work out rather well, at least as good as all the games with exploding d10's. It doesn't suffer from the kinds of problems that L5R had where if you have a rank I in a skill you can't really do shit, whereas if you have rank 6 and good traits you are a GOD, especially if you spend a die on the roll and roll and keep an extra.

Bah, it's all about how you want to play.

Hell, rock paper scissors worked out surprisingly well for those.....other things.
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya. The key to proficiency checks (maybe one I didn't stress enough in the book), is that they should only be allowed when the GM believes the character might succeed. The GM should feel free to say a check isn't possible and move along.

Or, to put it another way, proficiency checks are meant to be made. I'm not saying a character should be guaranteed success, but checks should only be occurring when the success makes reasonable sense, and they shouldn't push the GM around. Prof checks should never enable the character to do God-like things. A character with grade IV in Arcane Knowledge should be making most Arcane Knowledge checks. The important thing is what a successful Arcane Knowledge check means. Does it mean the character can figure our the general nature of most magical texts? Yes. Does it mean the character can sit down and read any magical text written 2000 years ago. No way. -A successful check should always be helpful, but it doesn't mean the ability to accomplish anything that falls under the proficiency.

I do wish I made this point more emphatically in the book. I'll probably remedy this in the future.
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Moth
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Joined: 10 Jun 2008
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Location: Grito

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not liking the new shields. Adding another die roll to combat? And making it a d3 AND making it even less intuitive by signifying 0-2? Ugh. I'm fine with shields as they are. You could always just have them raise dodge by 1. It's not terribly intuitive, but it is much simpler.

Mike said that by 2nd circle ritual magic it was possible to achieve infinite mana by summoning creatures and sacrificing them. I'll have to look that up.
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Warden
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same here.

An extra roll with that orrible' d4 (it was just never meant to fly) does nothing for me.

Can I ask, what's wrong with armour affording a flat absorbtion rate?
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Master Thomas Anopheles
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Joined: 20 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Mike said that by 2nd circle ritual magic it was possible to achieve infinite mana by summoning creatures and sacrificing them. I'll have to look that up.


On the record, that's a bad glitch and needs correction for 2nd ed.

Off the record, that's f***ing awesome and what ritual magic is all about. Exploit the blood magic. Your soul won't suffer.
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's why we've got the heuristicians, -to control my crazy. A base 1 absorption for shields definitely works. I haven't yet playtested the option, and I concede it might be more trouble than it's worth. Conceptually, I do like the 0 absorption possibility for shields, but it might not work out too well in practice. People that like crunch might dig it. No worries, I'm not rushing to change it. But thanks for the feedback.

As for the Ritual thing, Moth. I can only assume Mike is thinking of mixing Pillage Spirit and summoning Monsters. Drink Deep takes too long. The biggest drawback here is that Pillage Spirit requires a creature have an intellect of 4 or greater, which isn't guaranteed by the summonings. However, even if it were, the Mystic would need to spend some serious time, gaining 1 spell point for each creature summoned and slain. It's kinda funny. I guess if that's how he wants to refresh his repertoire... It might be easier to just meditate for a bit. I'd be interested to hear what he had devised.
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Warden
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I the only one finding the points cost for initial statistic generation restrictive?

My first two characters, a dwarf and an elf have the: 15, 10, 10, 10 10 syndrome. Wherein one stat is a 15 the others, aint.

It seems tight
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I for one commend you, Warden. I often see folk (Greg) drop Presence as low as possible, something like 5, 10, 13, 13, 13. If you like to mix it up, you could try one of the random generation options in the book. Personally, I like 7, 9, 9, 13, 15. For non-casters, -I like a low stat that can be raised with a few skill points at 2nd and/or 3rd level.

I agree, there is some serious tension there in choosing attributes. -I often wish I had just 1 point more. However, besides Greg's characters, I haven't seen a clear pattern in what people choose.
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Type of Dice No. of Dice

d3

d4

d6

d8

d10

d12

d20

d00

1

2

3

4

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