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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Greyfaced as far as the skill system being akin to a market. In fact, I mention somewhere in the GM section that new disciplines should rarely be introduced during play, as it can throw off character development planning, and make some previous PC development planning obsolete.

As for skill deals: "You sought out and trained under the judo master, Unarmed Combat costs 2 less" -I also believe that's all well and good in a market system, as long as it is the exception and not the rule.

Now considering paths or prestige paths or what-have-you, I think these can be good and interesting as long as the character following the path must sacrifice for any gains made. This can come in a few forms. Here's a couple off the top of my head:

1: Money and time spent. A pretty small sacrifice if you ask me.
2: A strict code that must be followed. -PCs often minimize this by plain wearing the GM down.
3: Some other skills cannot be gained: See 'Agnostic' in the optional rules section. Sometimes this feels artificial, but it can work.
4: Some skills outside the path cost more. This, I believe is a good one, as long as the skills aren't all "Animal Handling: Falconry costs twice as much!"
5: A weakness comes with the path advantages. For these Merrow Slayers, it could be a growing attachment to the sea. Perhaps they lose 1 point of endurance every week they've gone without immersing themselves in the sea. This is my favorite cost so far. It builds story and tempers good with bad.
6: There's no way back. Not my favorite, but following a path could become a commitment that was hard to break. -Many ways to do this.
7: Some people like to make your life hell. Ex. Being a Merrow Slayer is tuff. There's Merrow Slayer Slayers that seek them out and destroy them for some crazy reason.

Anyway, a combo of 2 or more of these would probably be best. But, my meaning is that any advantageous path should come with some real disadvantages. Personally, I really like the sea-affinity thing.

But, what should go without saying, is that Wayfarers is all about doing what you wanna. If you want to make Dragon Breathing cost 2 skill points and open only to gnomes, go for it!
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greyfaced
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha! gnomes.....
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Ars Mysteriorum
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Joined: 27 Sep 2008
Posts: 339
Location: Sioux Falls, SD, USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimmySwill wrote:
I'm with Greyfaced as far as the skill system being akin to a market. In fact, I mention somewhere in the GM section that new disciplines should rarely be introduced during play, as it can throw off character development planning, and make some previous PC development planning obsolete.

As for skill deals: "You sought out and trained under the judo master, Unarmed Combat costs 2 less" -I also believe that's all well and good in a market system, as long as it is the exception and not the rule.

Now considering paths or prestige paths or what-have-you, I think these can be good and interesting as long as the character following the path must sacrifice for any gains made. This can come in a few forms. Here's a couple off the top of my head:

1: Money and time spent. A pretty small sacrifice if you ask me.
2: A strict code that must be followed. -PCs often minimize this by plain wearing the GM down.
3: Some other skills cannot be gained: See 'Agnostic' in the optional rules section. Sometimes this feels artificial, but it can work.
4: Some skills outside the path cost more. This, I believe is a good one, as long as the skills aren't all "Animal Handling: Falconry costs twice as much!"
5: A weakness comes with the path advantages. For these Merrow Slayers, it could be a growing attachment to the sea. Perhaps they lose 1 point of endurance every week they've gone without immersing themselves in the sea. This is my favorite cost so far. It builds story and tempers good with bad.
6: There's no way back. Not my favorite, but following a path could become a commitment that was hard to break. -Many ways to do this.
7: Some people like to make your life hell. Ex. Being a Merrow Slayer is tuff. There's Merrow Slayer Slayers that seek them out and destroy them for some crazy reason.

Anyway, a combo of 2 or more of these would probably be best. But, my meaning is that any advantageous path should come with some real disadvantages. Personally, I really like the sea-affinity thing.

But, what should go without saying, is that Wayfarers is all about doing what you wanna. If you want to make Dragon Breathing cost 2 skill points and open only to gnomes, go for it!


Actually, these are all fantastic ideas, as I'm more a fan of the gritty, power-with-a-price world of Warhammer FRP and Call of Cthulhu than D&D4e. That said, I agree with the idea of giving a lessened price for some skills and an increased price for others.

Lastly, after some thought, I agree that the concept of creating new disciplines could likely break the system, especially in the hands of a rampant power-gamers (ie. all of my players to greater and lesser extents).

It's possible we could treat factions as skill/discipline/single spell (as a spell-like, special ability) packages, where one designing a faction would use the points to buy certain skill more cheaply and then choose weaknesses to balance it out. There could be an example list of weaknesses to be taken for each grade (Grade I tithe, 5% of all money taken goes to faction, Grade II 10%, etc.).

Still working this out...
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right on Ars M. I agree, adding too many new disciplines can be hard to manage. Even a discipline that looks benign on its own might be coupled in a unbalancing way with another. Still, combos can be part of the fun! Players have to feel like they are getting away with something after all. A give-and-take system for a large number of new disciplines might be a good idea.

That said, there's nothing wrong with power-gaming. It's not my thing, but that's of no matter. If a group digs the power-game, more power to them! Dragon-breathing gnomes! Fire gnomes. Twisted Evil
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Ars Mysteriorum
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to work on this...

I'm going to try to see how to make this work without making it cumbersome and/or clunky.

I'll break the silence when I think I have something that makes sense or have absolutely no idea what the hell I'm doing Razz
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ars Mysteriorum wrote:
Back to work on this... I'm going to try to see how to make this work without making it cumbersome and/or clunky.


I dunno Ars M, I think fire-breathing gnomes would be quite easy actually. Let's say 2d12, thrice per day. Mental Resistance of 14 to reduce damage by 1/2.

I'm sorry, I kid. I kid. Smile
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Ars Mysteriorum
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Joined: 27 Sep 2008
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Location: Sioux Falls, SD, USA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimmySwill wrote:
Ars Mysteriorum wrote:
Back to work on this... I'm going to try to see how to make this work without making it cumbersome and/or clunky.


I dunno Ars M, I think fire-breathing gnomes would be quite easy actually. Let's say 2d12, thrice per day. Mental Resistance of 14 to reduce damage by 1/2.

I'm sorry, I kid. I kid. Smile


Fire-breathing gnomes?

Well, I'll create my faction of Fire-Breathing Gnome Punters, who relish the challenge of planting an iron-encased boot square in the middlings of small, wily prey coupled with the constant threat of halitostic immolation.

I'm steepling my fingers thinking of it now...

Grunthar, Most Exalted Iron-Toe of the Fourth Order: "A goodly distance that. I'll require my finest Staff of Measuring to ensure the tally is well-recorded in the the Frabjous Book of Bootings."
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Ars Mysteriorum
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Joined: 27 Sep 2008
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Location: Sioux Falls, SD, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I've got some ideas hashed out.

Creating a whole new discipline and a way of ranking new disciplines and how many points they would cost is simply too arbitrary to be presented in some organized format. I actually think it takes away from the feel of Wayfarers to do so. However, not allowing for custom creation of abilities defeats any purpose behind designing a faction structure other than being a way to buy a packaged set of disciplines and new skills more cheaply.

So, rather than simply doing that, I'm going to use Spell Circles and Spell Creation as a guideline for suitable abilities. Rather than having a character who wants to create a Paladin of the Order of Light who then has to spend a ton of SP for all the training a priest would receive, this will allow for the warrior who knows only those faith spells to supplement his martial pursuits.

I think using an easily quantifiable (in terms of SP spent) per day form of spell-like abilities rather than wholesale disciplines will make the creation of factions much easier. It will be much easier to say, "It will be X number of points for a 1st Circle Spell-Like Ability + Y points for number of times the spell can be cast per day" than creating a discipline creation system.

P.S. I'm certain this makes almost no sense, but I'm posting it here so I have a place to remember the ideas I've just come up with.
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I think I get what you are saying Ars M, and I dig it.

Particularly in terms of faith magic, I think a minor magic skill that bypasses all-out potential could be very cool.

Hmm, for that matter you could have cheap-ass potential, that only concerns one dominion and maxes out at 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Or spell specific... -There's a lot you could do here.

Yeah, let us know more as it comes together.
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Gregory Vrill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I like buying single spells. That's sort of 'true' Hedge magic in a way.
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Ars M, and I were riffing about the notions of Factions elsewhere and had some notions I'll plop down here too pick back up on the subject.

Here's a general overview of what we were talking about (Correct me if I am wrong, Ars M):

1. Factions represent a kind of path or way of life a character takes. Possibly due to joining a group, adopting a cause, etc.

2. Factions require a sort of 'oath'. As per Ars M: "Every faction has an oath to ensure the character acts in accordance with the factionís goals and to account for the fantastic abilities granted by creating an obstacle for the character to overcome whether it is in the form of undertaking a quest, accepting a code of honor, taking a vow of silence, or agreement to pay a tithe. Failing to meet the terms of the Oath has different results for each Oath."

3. The possible mechanic: Belonging to a faction skews the skill list, where all Disciplines and Proficiencies are considered to be either Aligned, Neutral or Opposed to the faction. I gave a possible example of a Paladin faction:

Paladin Faction:

Opposed: Backstab, Stealth, Evasion, Agility, Hermetic, Ritual, Hedge, etc.
Neutral: Literacy, Intellect, Swimming, etc.
Aligned: Parrying, Prayer, Faith Magic, Endurance, etc.

Those skills aligned cost 1pt less, those neutral are unchanged, and those opposed cost 1pt more.


The costs might be off (maybe +2, -2), but in order to create a new faction, you would only need to consider which profs and disciplines were Aligned or Opposed and consider the oath. IMO, the more skills the faction affects, maybe the more extreme the oath or repercussions for breaking the oath might be.
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Ars Mysteriorum
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This system reminds me a bit of the class skills vs. cross-classed skills for d20 classes, but in a more freely formed, less restrictive fashion I tremendously approve of.

This is completely the direction I want to take faction creation, where it's something you can just come up with and throw down without overly much concern for spending points and spending too much time worrying about balance.

F***ing awesome.

EDIT: Ah, this is a nice boiling down.

Costs can be easily shifted, perhaps also depending on the severity of the Oath?

There's some breadth (number of skills effected) and width (costs to be assigned) issues to be hashed out, but this is looking to be very promising.

Out of respect for the simplicity of the way Jimmy's alignment system works, I'd like those breadth and width issues to be less structured and left more to individual GM fiat.

What do you all think?

Regardless, I think a rundown of different kinds of Oaths from everyone on the forum will aid greatly in providing a strong start.
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Gregory Vrill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is excellent. To me it feels sort of similar to what I was trying to do with the Guild things, although I kept it totally simple, almost to a useless degree.

Likewise, I always like to have schools and training centers in the campaign worlds, where certain skills can be acquired more cheaply- or at all. Often these take the form of combat schools.

Between this and psionics/espers, I think we've got material for another WGJ.

I know I speak for Swill also when I say thanks to Ars and Moth for working on this stuff and participating here on the forums. So good.
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently told Ars M I would take a stab at formulating his Factions idea. In short, the idea is that a character can join a group or faction, and after becoming initiated, gets the benefit of a skewed skill list, as long as they remain within that faction. For example, the Knights of Aguierre might have an elite group of crusaders that are sworn to an oath. These crusaders must tithe to the Church, spread the word, and can be called upon in times of need. In exchange, members can train at various schools (using a skewed discipline list), and take advantage of whatever else the church offers. Falling out-of-favor of the faction causes the character to lose these benefits.

As a start, I created 5 general faction templates. Each faction has 8 aligned and 8 opposed disciplines and 4 aligned and 4 opposed proficiencies. When purchasing, aligned skills cost 1 SP less and opposed skills cost 1 SP more. Hereís what I have at the moment:

Paladin
Disciplines:
Aligned: Armor Use, Faith Magic Potential, Increased Accuracy, Multiple Attacks, Prayer, Resilience, Shield Use, Weapon Mastery.
Opposed: Backstab, Combat Archery, Disarm, Evasion, Precise Shot, Ritual Spell Circle, Silent Casting, Unarmed Combat.
Proficiencies:
Aligned: Inspire, Leadership, Martial Knowledge, Religious Knowledge.
Opposed: Disguise, Distract, Sleight-of-hand, Stealth.

Barbarian
Disciplines:
Aligned: Bash, Critical Hit, Greatstrike, Health Point, Increased Physical Resistance, Last Stand, Magic Resistance, Stunning Blow.
Opposed: Armor Use, Combat Archery, Faith Spell Circle, Hedge Spell Circle, Hermetic Spell Circle, Increased Mental Resistance, Magic Potency, Parrying.
Proficiencies:
Aligned: Intimidate, Running, Swimming, Wilderness Lore.
Opposed: Arcane Knowledge, Dweomercraft (Hedge), Dweomercraft (Hermetic), Extra-planar Knowledge.

Monk
Disciplines:
Aligned: Calculated Strike, Feint, Improved Initiative, Increased Mental Resistance, Multiple Attacks, Savant, Unarmed Combat, Vital Strike.
Opposed: Armor Use, Extra Spell Point, Magic Potency, Hedge Magic Spell Circle, Hermetic Spell Circle, Ritual Magic Spell Circle, Shield Bash, Shield Use.
Proficiencies:
Aligned: Acrobatics, Jumping, Running, Perception.
Opposed: Armor-making, Dweomercraft (Hedge), Dweomercraft (Hermetic), Leadership.

Wizard
Disciplines:
Aligned: Extra Spell, Hedge Spell Circle, Hermetic Spell Circle, Increased Mental Resistance, Language, Magic Potency, Magic Resistance, Savant.
Opposed: Armor Use, Health Point, Increased Accuracy, Increased Physical Resistance, Last Stand, Shield Use, Unarmed Combat, Weapon Mastery.
Proficiencies:
Aligned: Arcane Knowledge, Dweomercraft (Hedge), Dweomercraft (Hermetic), Magic Acuity.
Opposed: Armor-making, Running, Swimming, Weapon-making.

Druid
Disciplines:
Aligned: Blindfighting, Extra Spell Point, Increased Physical Resistance, Last Stand, Resilience, Ritual Spell Circle, Savant, Unarmed Combat.
Opposed: Armor Use, Backstab, Disarm, Guard, Hedge Spell Circle, Hermetic Spell Circle, Parrying, Shield Use.
Proficiencies:
Aligned: Animal Handling, Herbalism, Tracking, Wilderness Lore.
Opposed: Arcane Knowledge, Dweomercraft (Hedge), Dweomercraft (Hermetic), Extra-planar Knowledge.

I think it would be nice to make a dozen or so faction templates and if people were interested, they could apply them as they see fit.

Thoughts?
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Hybban
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just read the whole thread and I like what you've done in the end. I haven't checked all the lists, but I think the idea is great.

The first proposition to have 'circles' for factions that would give you access to additional bonuses/powers is exactly what Earthdawn is about. Is Earthdawn, you are an Adept that follows a Way (Archer, Warlock, Sky Raider, etc.). You spend your Legend Point to increase your skills and your 'Powers' When you have spent a certain amount of LP, you gain access to the next Circle of your Way (yes, they call that circles too) and new powers.

If you stray from your Way (like the Oath you were talking about) you would lose the access to your powers. Really, if you don't know Earthdawn, you should really look into it, there are many resemblances with Wayfarers.

Hyb'
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