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WATER TO WINE SPELL

 
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LOTHAR
Ecclesia


Joined: 19 Dec 2009
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:51 pm    Post subject: WATER TO WINE SPELL Reply with quote

I have a question about the Hedge 1st Circle Spell "Water to Wine". Since the spell can be used to create a poison doing 1d8 of damage, can it also be used to create a healing brew that heals 1d8?
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Ars Mysteriorum
Demiurge


Joined: 27 Sep 2008
Posts: 339
Location: Sioux Falls, SD, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: WATER TO WINE SPELL Reply with quote

LOTHAR wrote:
I have a question about the Hedge 1st Circle Spell "Water to Wine". Since the spell can be used to create a poison doing 1d8 of damage, can it also be used to create a healing brew that heals 1d8?


I would argue no, as poisons are naturally occurring substances, whereas healing ointments/potions involve a complicated magical process to create them.
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Gregory Vrill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Water to Wine is arguably the most problematic spell in Wayfarers, because of what else it implies. I agree with Ars... if you think about natural substances, there are lots of things out there which, if ingested, really hurt you. Very few that really HELP you.
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Rasfrasen
Lodge of the Bronze Knight
Lodge of the Bronze Knight


Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:17 pm    Post subject: Herbalists Reply with quote

Ever been to an herbalists shop? They have a tea for every disease under the sun, and thats in the real world, let alone one that has fantasy mixed in. Poisons may occur naturally but they are some of the most complex liquids (especially those from animals) the herbs listed in the book may constitute a short list but surely they are not the sum total of helpful concoctions that can be made in Twylos or other world using the system.
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JimmySwill
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Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 1390
Location: Torsche

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah the Water to Wine lightning rod. Smile -Greg loves it.

I like Ars. M's logic. However, perhaps if you had the Herbalism and Healing proficiencies, you could work up a good concoction that speeds natural healing. I'd go so far as to say a WtW spell in the hands of a skilled Healer/Herbalist could brew up a concoction that adds 2 extra Health Points of natural healing per day. -It's a slow but solid Fix spell!

Maybe it's a carrot/pomegranate smoothie. Those are packed with antioxidants. Wink
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LOTHAR
Ecclesia


Joined: 19 Dec 2009
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Ars. M's logic is flawed. As Ras pointed out, there are healing herbs that an herbalist can make into healing ointments without magic. Plus, I beiieve that most of modern medicines are based off of natural occurring compounds that have been used for centuries to cure people. Another arguement is that you are using magic to create the liquid, even if the end result is a non-magic liquid. If you can create something that harms with the spell, then you should be able to create something that heals with it. To me, that seems balanced. I don't have the book with me, but I think it says that the spell can make any non-magical non-living liquid into another non-magical non-living liquid. Doesn't say anything about natural.
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Gregory Vrill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points. Fair enough, and we've been playing with nonmagical Healing Herbs made by the Alchemists Guild and others (described on page 330 of Wayfarers). I guess my thinking above was simply, if you go outside and drink some random liquid you find, it's more likely to make you sick than heal your sword wound.

This is one of those classic game balance vs. realistic magic things. The REAL problem with water to wine is why you can't turn the water in someone's body into, say, alcohol or lava or whatever and do far more damage than 1d8.

Hell, even making permanent 1d8 poison with a 1st Circle Hedge Magic spell is problematic in that poison's usually costly stuff, and this is a cheap way for a hedge mage to try to make some cash.

Let me go on the record as hating this spell. That said, I'm totally fine with making a 1d2 healing potion. I'm totally fine with PC Hedge Mages trying to make $$$ by selling 1d2 healing potions for super cheap. Lots of in-game options for discouraging PCs from becoming merchants; alternatively it might be a fun thing to explore in a game.
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one is right or wrong here. What does matter, is whether or not your group can come to an agreeable solution. My suggestion: go with what your GM decides. If you can't stomach that, simply drop the spell.

Personally, I can't imagine any non-magical concoction healing a 8 point sword wound on the spot. But there are plenty of non-magical liquids that will hurt you seriously if not kill you, once you drink them. -But that's for my game. Do what works for you.

As an aside, if you find you can game a mechanic/spell to an effect that far exceeds in power similar mechanics/spells on a regular basis, it is going to become a problem. Occasionally employing a weaker mechanic/spell to great effect is often brilliant roleplaying. However, justifiable or not, consistently big loopholes don't make for good times. Ultimately, your GM must consider the effect upon the game if he/she lets a ruling go.

In short, what I am saying, is that Lothar's group can agree that Lothar is right about Water to Wine as he interprets the spell, but even so, decide the game is better off without it.

BTW, I love these kinds of discussions.
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LOTHAR
Ecclesia


Joined: 19 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see both of your points as far as not wanting to make a first circle spell to powerful. The loophole statement was pretty funny. The group I play with is always looking to use spells in different ways than they were originally intended while still staying within the boundries of the discripition. But certainly pushing them. Can be very entertaining. Since Dartavian is running the game he will of course get the final decision. I will actually push for the 1d4 healing liquid. Just because with the poison, if you save, you only take 1d4 damage. I was talking to Ras and we also came up with the idea that maybe the liquid can heal, but just not have a permanent shelf life. Say every week the liquid loses a die of healing ability.
I haven't really gotten a chance to read how healing potions are made, but I seem to recall that I read somewhere that Faith Magic cannot be bottled, which makes me wonder how healing potions are made in the first place.
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Dartavian
Strategoi


Joined: 31 Oct 2009
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Location: Peculiar, Missouri

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This should be an interesting debate. Do your research and present your case tomorrow. We will definitely reach a decision. I just donít want to spend all night debating the effectiveness of specific poisons, herbs or magical effects versus real world science.
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Ars Mysteriorum
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Joined: 27 Sep 2008
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Location: Sioux Falls, SD, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dartavian wrote:
I just donít want to spend all night debating the effectiveness of specific poisons, herbs or magical effects versus real world science.
(Emphasis mine)


I mean no offense with the following, as not long ago I would have typed the same thing.

After researching magic, alchemy, and astrology for my Master's in Western Esotericism for the past few months, that statement made me laugh out loud.
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Dartavian
Strategoi


Joined: 31 Oct 2009
Posts: 74
Location: Peculiar, Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ars Mysteriorum wrote:
Dartavian wrote:
I just donít want to spend all night debating the effectiveness of specific poisons, herbs or magical effects versus real world science.
(Emphasis mine)


I mean no offense with the following, as not long ago I would have typed the same thing.

After researching magic, alchemy, and astrology for my Master's in Western Esotericism for the past few months, that statement made me laugh out loud.


No offense taken Ars Mysteriorum your input as always is most welcome. At times debating these guys can seem like a 12-round heavy weight bout, they definitely donít have a problem expressing opinions. I enjoy lively debates so I have to set ground rules especially for myself because I can be the worst offender at times.

My Ruling(s)

For consistency purposes my decision for the Water to Wine spell is to let the spell stand as written. Lotharsí hypothesis has merit; I donít see it as a game breaker. I think the spell already has sufficient limitations as written, and I always can institute the GM caveat if need be.

Also, we addressed the creation of potions, specifically potions of healing in the same debate. I do believe Alchemy page 230 of the Wayfarers RPG book, spells it out pretty clearly to me. Even though Faith Magic can not be bottle as stated, the overriding caveat in the description of Alchemy is the word ďmimicĒ. A character would have to be proficient in Hermetic or Hedge combined with Faith Magic in order to create healing potions. I feel the essence derived to empower the potion of healing would come from the controlling sphere of Hermetic or Hedge, supported by the foundation of Faith Magic. The magical essence (with proper ingredients yet to be determined) from Hermetic or Hedge would ďmimic the effectsĒ of Faith magic healing spells thus, a healing potion can indeed be made using the rules in the Wayfarers RPG.


til' next time!
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Ars Mysteriorum
Demiurge


Joined: 27 Sep 2008
Posts: 339
Location: Sioux Falls, SD, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dartavian wrote:
Ars Mysteriorum wrote:
Dartavian wrote:
I just donít want to spend all night debating the effectiveness of specific poisons, herbs or magical effects versus real world science.
(Emphasis mine)


I mean no offense with the following, as not long ago I would have typed the same thing.

After researching magic, alchemy, and astrology for my Master's in Western Esotericism for the past few months, that statement made me laugh out loud.


No offense taken Ars Mysteriorum your input as always is most welcome. At times debating these guys can seem like a 12-round heavy weight bout, they definitely donít have a problem expressing opinions. I enjoy lively debates so I have to set ground rules especially for myself because I can be the worst offender at times.

My Ruling(s)

For consistency purposes my decision for the Water to Wine spell is to let the spell stand as written. Lotharsí hypothesis has merit; I donít see it as a game breaker. I think the spell already has sufficient limitations as written, and I always can institute the GM caveat if need be.

Also, we addressed the creation of potions, specifically potions of healing in the same debate. I do believe Alchemy page 230 of the Wayfarers RPG book, spells it out pretty clearly to me. Even though Faith Magic can not be bottle as stated, the overriding caveat in the description of Alchemy is the word ďmimicĒ. A character would have to be proficient in Hermetic or Hedge combined with Faith Magic in order to create healing potions. I feel the essence derived to empower the potion of healing would come from the controlling sphere of Hermetic or Hedge, supported by the foundation of Faith Magic. The magical essence (with proper ingredients yet to be determined) from Hermetic or Hedge would ďmimic the effectsĒ of Faith magic healing spells thus, a healing potion can indeed be made using the rules in the Wayfarers RPG.


til' next time!


That's a fine piece of rule-crafting you've got there, and quite fair, no less!
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Gregory Vrill
YOGC Staff


Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 1021

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, d'accord.

Magic item creation, even potions and scrolls, is always tricky. This is a nice solution.
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