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4e the Microsoft Vista of Gaming

 
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brak
Strategoi


Joined: 04 Dec 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:05 pm    Post subject: 4e the Microsoft Vista of Gaming Reply with quote

[RANT]

first off: sorry to the swill-master and co. for going there (which is now here) in the hello thread.

second: i do not and will not dis 4e players or those who disagree with me about my distaste for 4e. that's just tacky and counter-productive.

third: i freakin hate 4e.

i bought keep on the shadowfell before i made any decisions. it was a huuuuge disappointment. gnomes gone? no problem. two types of elves. meh, worse things happen at sea. but broken math?

that makes one angry orc.

check this out: http://www.thealexandrian.net/archive/archive2008-05.html#20080514b

he plays it out much better than i ever could.

[/RANT]
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Ars Mysteriorum
Demiurge


Joined: 27 Sep 2008
Posts: 339
Location: Sioux Falls, SD, USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wholeheartedly agreed.

I think 4e is a tactical miniatures game with video-game RPG overtones (there's a plot which you are more or less rail-roaded onto and your actions have little effect on the outcome).

An RPG, by my definition, 4e is not.
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wolfie
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Joined: 21 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed here, as well. Of the 4e games I have observed most of the time was spent bragging about who was most powerful and figuring out where everything was supposed to go. Also, I don't unterstand many (most) of the games' choices, such as the overwhelming hit point totals and the 'I can throw endless attack spells', not to mention 'healing surges'. What exactly is the point? It seems a self defeating exercise in frustration to me. I did'nt have to play the thing to know I wouldn't enjoy it. Maybe some of the people who are playing it simply are not aware of other choices in the hobby. I don't mean to sound like I know what everyone should like, but 4e looks like a total loss, and no fun at all to me.
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brak
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Joined: 04 Dec 2008
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Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don't forget that the wizard's magical 'rituals' basically killed creative spell-casting.

and the paper work load... scheesh!
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Gregory Vrill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha, no problem Brak. Swill just likes to throw his weight around here.

So I'm playing in a 4E campaign right now. The running joke is that Dungeoneering is the skill for anything. Especially all the stuff that we used to be able to do, that we want to do, that there is no longer any mechanism for. Appraisal? Artistic ability?

In our games, Knowledge and Perception checks are the two most common rolls... haven't actually clocked it, but I'd guess these checks are made something on the order of every 15-20 minutes, or if in getting ready for a fight, tons of Perception checks, while after a combat, tons of knowledge checks, of various flavors. Wolfie's remark about Poison Lore is on-spot... maybe it's because I'm an academic, but I love having knowledge checks of all sorts available. It's been difficult for the DM (not me) to know what to call many things, most of which involve current world geography. It's History I guess. 'Streetwise' just doesn't seem to cut it as a skill.

...

4E has its charms in my view. I like that different attacks can target different things- some go for Reflex, others go for AC, Will, or Fortitude, it's not just rolling to hit vs AC all the time.

Combat goes on longer though, in part because everyone's healing now at all times. I think the DM got sick of all the players' surges, and now we're fighting monsters that do it too, routinely.

But most of it is just in a different genre than I prefer to play... I'm not a fan of Dragonborn, elves, or high fantasy in general, so I'm biased from the beginning.

Brak, that link is dead-on though. How do Rogues talk about 'Trick Strike' as a skill? Mages clearly can discuss certain spells as tangible things and pieces of knowledge in the world, in-game. In Wayfarers, since we're using a more 3E-like feat system, I think there's a tighter connection, or what the author calls modeling, between RPG mechanics and in-game skill sets.

...

Actually that website has a host of good stuff on it. I absolutely hate spells like Hold Person and Finger of Death, because he's right- they just make the game less fun. Charms and Holds are the worst, even worse than instant death magic. Hmm, something to be fixed in future Wayfarers.
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brak
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Joined: 04 Dec 2008
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Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

or why can fighters only do certain skill strikes 1 time a day?

to quote the bard:

"It does not. make. sense!"



no, wookies cannot save 4e. not now. not ever.

but that being said, i think 4e would be a good way to introduce new gamers to the game. sorta like playing checkers before learning the more complex game of chess. you know?
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How'd I know this would be the fastest-growing thread?

That's a great link, brak.

First off, some 4e thoughts: I haven't played it. I've read much of the core books however, and know it doesn't suit me. I'll concede it's an RPG, just as I concede everything called 'art' is art, and I am not being sarcastic. If people think it's a great RPG, well for them it is.

It's not for me. I have some strong opinions about the game, but feel reluctant to share them. That's because I don't want anything I said about the game to be mistakenly extended to those who play it. Greg is playing it and he's a brilliant guy and an old friend. I trust his judgment more than most. In fact, I am sure I could have a blast playing 4e. However, I'd probably like to be drinking some beer at the time. It looks like it could be light-hearted fun. Hah! I healing surge again! I just wouldn't use it for an extended RPG endeavor.

Some Wayfarers thoughts: I made one such mistake with Greatstrike. You can only successfully Greatstrike once per hour. This was a skill we started using ages ago, and never thought much of it. It works well mind you. However, it makes little sense. Sure, you get real tired for the rest of the hour. It's a minor infraction, but it has bothered me. However, a -5 initiative modifier or a -3 to-hit or something similar just doesn't cut it. -You'll always end up with someone Greatstriking each attack. Sorry about Greatstrike. Smile

Yes, knowledge proficiencies are easy to throw on. I recommend adding them as needed. However, watch out for cross-over. -It can get silly. Proficiencies are a real design challenge. If taken too far they do start to substitute good roleplay. If they don't exist, the GM ends up making people roll tons of d6s or what-have-you, or making attribute checks for everything, or you get a lot of arguments about what a character might or might not know, do etc... Profs add to character development and fix a few more problems than they create. That said, the Wayfarers proficiency list is a bit sparse, and the tension that creates is actually there for a reason.

Now, can a goat healing surge?
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brak
Strategoi


Joined: 04 Dec 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[beavis.butthead]
uuuhhh... hey baby. i've got a healing surge.... huh-huh.
[/beavis.butthead]

yeah, if i knew somebody who said, "let's have some beers and play 4e" i'd be in. but i wouldn't play 4e for (or drink during) a long campaign. just not my style.

one way to "limit" powerful attacks is to make them tiring. earthdawn did this in an awesome way. every time you used a powerful or semi-magical talent you'd take strain damage (anywhere from 1 to 4 points of damage). it makes sense mechanically and in the world of the game.

so what if Greatstrike cost 1-2 hit points of damage every time you used it? how does that sound?
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brak, I think that's a nice idea. However, maybe instead of Health Point reductions, it could be an endurance and strength adjustment. That'll translate to a hp reduction anyway, and it's more like the character is getting tired out. Something like:

"Greatstrike may be attempted once per round. However, for each successful Greatstrike beyond the first, the character loses 1 endurance point and 1 strength point for one hour (min. 1)."

I kind of like the idea of a character going crazy and Greatstriking himself into exhaustion.

What do you think? This would be a great little addition to WGJ #1. Let me know what you think and I'll add it to your credit.
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brak
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Joined: 04 Dec 2008
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Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woo-hoo!

i think that's a good solution! credits!

PM me for my real name and what not, kk?
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JimmySwill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where's Brak?

I think he'd get a kick out of this.
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Gregory Vrill
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should write your 6th ed review now Swill- pencils and paper and all that.
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